Investing in Technical Founders as AI Changes the Market

Amir: On this episode of the show, I have with me Tim Chen. He is managing partner at Essence Venture Capital, and we're gonna be talking about, the way he invests rather in terms of focusing on very technical founders, people that haven't quite figured out go-to-market, talking about infrastructure 'cause they, he invest heavily into that space, and we'll talk a little bit about how he goes about finding these companies early 'cause that is definitely some art and some science in there.

But Tim, thanks for taking the time.

Tim: Yeah. Glad to be here.

Amir: All right. Absolutely. All right. Essence, tell me a little bit about you guys.

Tim: Yeah. us guys is really- Is you ... primarily me. Yeah. yeah, so in quick story, I've started this fund 2019, and, like s- like you said earlier, we, we like to back very technical people, and like to partner with them very early 'cause that was my own story.

I started a company in 2016, and I'm very technical, right? Mm-hmm. I've been an engineer most of my career. Started a company, raised my own rounds, and, had to learn so many lessons myself, and I also learned that a lot of investors are very... they l- they love to deploy capital, but once actually providing value to founders is very tricky, right?

Very difficult for them to do it. So it's kinda the essence of Essence. I started this fund to really about a VC fund I wish I had when I was a founder. And we're fourth fund in now, and still backing very technical teams still today. Yeah.

Amir: Very cool. It's so funny you say... I talk, you know, I don't talk a lot about what I do, but, I own a recruiting company, and it was, I'd never worked a day in recruiting, and the North Star was to, treat people the way that I thought I would've liked to have been treated as an engineer.

Sometimes when I do talk to people that do solo things, they don't want that to be always front and center. They want the illusion that... You talk about that a lot, though, that it is you. I guess maybe question one is, is that, is that a conscious choice that it's you and y- y- you're the person in charge and you're front and center and, and all that kinda stuff that goes with it?

Tim: I would say definitely not how I started. I had no choice. If I wanna do this job, there was nobody hiring me. So that's definitely not where I started, when I was thinking about, like, venture as a whole. but, you know, the, the ecosystem or the, the funds, nobody wanna hire me, so I ended up doing this fund.

And, I, I do have a teammates, you know, she- Naomi, she's our head of platform, so definitely not just me. Mm-hmm. But I think there is something about the art of doing early stage that I get to appreciate way more now, that there's no way to look at the same company and everybody have the same opinions, which is the great...

Actually, that's great, because then we will have our own way of doing business, the own way of, of deciding what will be the next big companies will be. And as long as we're getting rights on a few shots, we're, we're good. So I think there's trade-offs when it comes to having a team of investors in the same room and just being one person.

And there's not always pros. There's, there's cons to it. But obviously, I, I really appreciate the pros of it because I like to work with very technical people. They're not easy to figure out, right? and so there's so much conviction, which is like, I believe, even if nobody else believes, that this team is great.

And you can't really always put into, like, scientific, quantitative words, right? And using qualitative words, also very difficult to transmit that, clearly to another person's head. So usually it has to be somebody Mm-hmm ... you know, pounding on the table, I think VC's terms, to I believe in this and let's just go for it.

So as a solo VC, I guess it's a conscious choice now because we could have... I could have joined other VC funds now, I could have partnered with other folks too. Never say never, but so far I realized, okay, I really enjoy the autonomacy where, like, I can actually make a decision quick, you know? I can literally do a decision on the spot, on a video call just like this, like, we're wiring money t- today and we're doing this, right?

And there's quite a lot of advantages with that, that comes with it. So yeah, I've taken the trade-off of being able to be a very independent thinker or independent actor and, and hope that works c- on, on a going basis.

Amir: Absolutely. I love that.

W- when you look at your experience you had as a, as a founder in dealing with the VC market, you said that shaped. Like, were there specific things that you could look back and go, you know, that you've kinda used as a baseline as your own, you know, ethos now as, as, as someone in venture capital?

Tim: Yeah, definitely.

I think that's probably the most transformative experience I had. raising money the first time, I didn't really know a bunch of VCs myself, so getting to learn a bunch of people, you know... I had to- 2016, I had to still drive up and down Sand Hill Road myself, you know. That was the period when nobody's investing over Zoom at all, right?

So get that kinda treatment, get to talk to everybody. and the raising money is one side, and then once you raise money, they all talk about how much helpful they are to their companies. You also experience that value and help, whatever that is. And even at the end, getting acquired, what was the actions?

What would they do? And the whole middle ground. So, uh, so obvious- this is just my one single sample point and, you know, I did only run it for, like, probably two to three years. So it's not like a 10-year or 15-year period, but definitely very transformative because looking at that experience, that really guided a lot of my thinking, into my own fund and Yeah, it's funny, I, I didn't really sat down, spend weeks of pondering what should I do my fund.

It's-- I just like, okay, if I'm gonna do this, it's pretty obvious. I should do it this way, you know? And it's all really... A lot does come from seeing what's working in the venture system as well, and also seeing what's, like, not so great, you know? And, yeah, I can, I can talk more about it, but, certainly the definitely very, guides so much about the, the experience we, we try to provide as well.

Amir: W- when you look at how you've modeled yourself, obviously you, like, you've couple-- highlighted a couple things of being, you know, work with very close technical founders, and then obviously figured, having figured out go to market.

There's some distinct kind of profiles you look for. W- when it comes to how you model your services and the value you try to add, h- how do you communicate that? how do you communicate your value to, to your, to your founders?

Tim: Yeah. And that's been changing quite a bit. 'Cause when I started, it was just me. I mean, still me today, but I guess, I guess what I'm saying is the center of that story in the beginning, it was all about me, Tim Chen, helping you, right? And what, what can I help you with is just whatever I worked on before, right?

I was a founder. I was in your shoes. Raised money just like you and had to figure a bunch of stuff out. And prior to that, I was working as engineer, work on open source things, and I... Right? A lot of developer ecosystem stuff I was working on, that all translates into network and stuff I've seen and learned.

into things I can help you with. That was my primary pitch from fund one, and probably even a little bit fund two. it's about like the engineers I can hire, right? Or the, the stuff I learned as a founder trying to go from a technical founder into a CEO role. I was never really good at it, but, you know, I had to learn painful lessons, even close customers, right?

that whole journey is not something I never really knew what that looked like and feel like. and hiring non-technical people, right? The whole like mental journey, is not something I know exactly how to communicate, but I think just getting across like, hey, I was exactly like you profile-wise, did exactly what you're trying to do journey-wise.

I think that alone really speaks volume. And also because I'm w- wasn't writing a big check as well. I'm not trying to lead you around so you'd have to choose between Sequoia and me. Like hap- go for a Sequoia's, I will just be a value add check for you. And that's super clear position-wise. Like, hey, take making it because we can provide as much value as anyone, but we're not really taking over your cap table.

So it's kinda like the main value is really like, you know, try to be as much of a founder friend On your cap table that has worked on your area. 'Cause I think that makes a huge difference. What I learned from my own founder experience is like VCs in a general, they're-- most VCs are not gonna just back things in your space.

And your space could be a very wide space. Let's say I'm building infrastructure software, developer tools, right? there's many different kinds of developer tools and many different kinds of infrastructure. But, you know, the, the amounts of broad horizons of f- like, spaces of VC is dealing with is much, much more master.

Like, most investors I talk to have backed a cur- insurance company, healthcare company, a SaaS product like Calendly, you know, a little bit of consumer here and there. Like, they're... Most of them are generalists. Even if they're specialists, they're specialists not very like B2B consumer, you know? Maybe a few...

There's a few funds that are probably a bit more, infrastructure dev tool-y, I would say. so yeah, but they're very little, and they're mostly, like, much bigger as well. There have not, not many very, very option- lo- lots of options. So that's why I think it's very important is that we hone down, like, a domain.

Like, I know what it feels like to see, companies and project go from very little to big, you know, effect in their space that you're working on, and all the lessons and the nuances that comes with it. So that, that's really a lot of the design of the value trying to bring is I know what you're working on, I know a lot of context, you know, and that kind of thing.

And moving from fund two to fund three to fund four, now we have a lot more stories to say. We helped this company go from this state to that state, right? We've helped that company went from this to that. We helped this... That we, we have a lot more, like, repeatable, replicated, like, company stories we can use now that solidifies, you know.

'Cause, like, just talking about, "I did this before," has certain weight to it.

Amir: Mm-hmm.

Tim: But it's a totally different experience when you say, "Hey, you know that company that raised quite a few money? We were pretty pivotal. We're, like, really helpful to that one that you look up to." And I think that's definitely make a pretty big difference.

Amir: Interesting. A-a-and, and you are right. I mean, I, I do, I do talk to a number of VCs, on the show 'cause I like their point of view. you're very focused on infrastructure. it, it is almost, It is, it is your domain. I am curious, you know, when you see other investments happening in other sectors, obviously, you know, there's so much activity, do you just not worry about it?

Do you just like, "Hey," like, "There's enough opportunity in front of me. I don't need to worry about..." You know, you, you obviously... I'm sure you're in the space. You hear about other companies that are not infra, d-DevTooly, as you mentioned. do you put the blinders on and just kinda stay, you know, heads down, realizing you'll just have a better hit rate the, the, the closer you are to your domain or, you know, how do you deal with that?

Tim: Yeah. And that's, that's actually is one of the most discuss topics I have with other GPs or other, not like s- established ones, like a lot more other emerging managers or solo GPs like me, started probably around the similar timeframe, '18, 2018, 2019 is like the rising wave of solo GPs, I would say. 2020, 2021, and there's still, there's still more coming up.

And always this discussion like, "Why do you do an infra-focused fund?" You know? You know, everybody's doing like a variety of different things. But, you know, one thing I learned fundraising myself as a founder, like the ones I remember to even be the best ones that are probably not just Sequoia, you know, Andreessen's, but like some other, I would say more emerging brands.

The one are most memorable for me are the ones actually have the most credible stories that why we know your space the best. And I think, you know, most VCs are not founders. You know, back in '06, 2016 when I was raising, there were almost like none. Or probably like one, and it's not even our space. But at least they started a company before, you know, at some, some degree.

And so what they usually do to convey that I know your space way more is that very, very specific portfolio, companies, density, and also the network is way more like highly concentrated on knowing exactly what it means to find good people, either customers or, or engineer hires, right? And they already make the introductions before they put money in, right?

It's not like, "I'm gonna help you out once we wire money in." It's like, "Hey, we're still chatting, but I want you to get excited working with us, so let me make three introductions with customers right now." And they're all like pretty good head of engineers from somewhere, that kind of thing. So they show their cards, right, to some degree early.

Um, so I, I think I just, I just learned that, you know? As being a f- someone on the other side, it's like, hey, if I wanna be the-- have a shot to be viewed as one of the best ones in some circle, I don't have celebrity relatives. I don't have any crazy network or pedigree I can work with, you know? So I gotta play the expertise play.

Like, that's really what I thought, to have a shot. Because like VC... Like from when I was raising money, I already can see how competitive this space is. You know, there's so many VC funds. I can-- And often driving from one to another, I can't even remember where I'm at anymore. Um, they all sound similar, you know, what they do, what the value add is.

Like kind of just not really able to remember who do I talk to today. Like there's not, not a whole lot of differences between one to another. And so I think just internalizing that, that s- that fact Coming to start my own fund, I know I had to break through that, that noise, you know? and I know it's gonna be just be more competitive with time, which it is, way more competitive, when I started.

So, it's a conscious choice for sure. Like, I rather miss out all the other deals, but to be clear what we do, 'cause I think being clear at what we do has so many advantages, and I'm still benefiting, fitting a lot from that. so that everybody in the ecosystem, without even really, like, guessing, know exactly the type of companies we'll be excited about.

And also I'm learning lessons too, like we need to also e- iterate and evolve that too. But having a very clear starting point, it makes everybody remember you, you know? Because every VC said, "We'll back everything." So I still remember your name, but I don't know why you would be the best VC I should collaborate on this particular deal with, right?

That kind of, like, impression. But if you're super clear what you bring, ah, okay, I have 500K left in my round. I wanna work with other angels or smaller funds. Which top one or two or three I would think of? The most more focused, distinct ones are gonna be the ones that, you know, pop up to the list the highest, besides your, your closest friends, obviously.

You know? Like, if you have a, some crazy relationship. But all said to that, if you're just like, just someone you talk to that you're impressed with, and I wanna have the highest value I believe my founders will get from, obviously the specialist will win all the time than just your, your broader generalist

Amir: that's, that's the advantage you have. When you look at infrastructure and it's, and it's very crowded right now, and obviously you go in very early, you go in working with very technical people, how are you differentiating solutions, products?

Obviously y- looking at your portfolio, I mean, there's a lot of room in infrastructure, so, I mean, there might not be a lot of collision, but how do you start looking at opportunities and going, "All right. Am I in something similar? Am I something not similar?" Like, how do you start... How do you, how do you deal with that?

Tim: Yeah, and that's changing every year, which is, I think, the most interesting, part of it. When I started, infrastructure is a lot more clear-cut, I, I think, you know, even though things will converge somewhat. But I don't think the industry really changes that much. When I start backing as Angel 2018 and then the fund from 2019, most people when they pick a market and pick a solution, they reall- they usually stay in that lane.

They might pivot, but they wouldn't-- Very rarely they'll pivot completely outside. Like, I was selling to d- engineers, now data scientists, right? Or I'm doing analyst stuff now. Like, like it's not really changed that, that much. They might change the value prop, they might change the approach here and there, but, uh...

So I think back in the day, it was a lot more about, like, knowing what to really pick your shots at. Like, if the teams has to be good, but we also, like, pick the markets. What is a disrupting market or what is disrupting approach that you can see it leads into market disruption or market, or just, like, customer behavior transformation, right?

And the more technical these, these products are, the harder it is to figure out. I remember back in the day when we backed a company called Tabular, and it was so much debate about that company among VCs. It's probably not, uh, not something everybody knows. It's, uh, but, they did sell to Databricks for two point two billion all stock.

So it was a very interesting, very great outcome. but I remember back in the day, even though everybody wants to back that company because it's a very high, interesting open source project that they are involved with, that everybody uses, not many people could un- understand what the commercial products is and all the kind of value it can bring.

So, uh, um, so yeah, I, I think it's just, it's very interesting that, you know, you start seeing companies early back in the day. It's a lot more about figuring out what is the potential of that, that, that idea and direction. 2026 today with AI, things are changing drastically. I think I, I was kinda talking about this in another podcast too.

W- probably the last few years, the best companies we backed are all pivots. You know, started with a networking thing and then went into code review, products. Maybe started as a security identity product, and then went to local, LLMs. It just, uh... Or, you know, basically when you started the company, you started with an idea, but the market shifts underneath you, right?

LLM's getting way better. There's market needs here, so we need inference, we need data, we need whatever. And you shift completely towards that direction as the market evolves, you know? And so today when I back companies, it's become so much more different now. Like, it's not about finding what is, a new idea per se, or, or, or only finding what is a new market and it's only do that.

It's about finding the teams that has what it takes to learn in real time. You know, they have to have something unique though, right? You cannot just put a team in random spot that can just, just keep running. You know, they have to have something that start off to be different often. Like, hey, they, they may have a different perspective, come from a different degree, work on different things than usual.

Like there's something a lot like a difference I can start with. But I'm no longer like looking at what they do and just trying to play derivatives. Like, okay, you're starting off with, um, I don't know, doing data labeling for medical whatever. So you're just gonna be doing data med- medical forever But rather, okay, what's a unique approach or w- unique way of dealing with customers, and who do you know and who are you working with, and what are the possibilities of markets you might go into?

Because, my assumption is you probably will pivot. You know? If this is not good or something changes drastically, you have the ability to kind of go into it, you know, as, as we mature as a industry as a whole, because AI is changing a lot, frankly, that we cannot even predict. And these companies, when they raise money, can at least run for two years-ish.

That's a lot of time. You know, the industry, it actually changes quite a lot of cycles within the middle. So ev- every company's different. Some are more vertical specific, some are more horizontal, some are more d- like... So we're looking for teams, I think, that has enough of a learning race and enough of a possibility distribution, probability distribution, for us to like, "You know what?

This has enough probabilities for me to see them going, end up in one of the good places or even unknown spaces. But I like this team, I like what their velocity is, and I think they have a shot to make it somewhere." That's the vibe now. it's not looking at a particular database architecture and think that's gonna make it or not.

Like, the technical details sometimes even doesn't even matter.

Amir: Interesting.

When you're looking at that fit, and you're looking at a company that is trying to find their way, when it comes to this notion of pivoting, and find- finding product market fit, like what, what is What-- how much latitude? Like, a-as, obviously, it's not your company, you're, you're an investor, but, you know, as an advisor, as a voice, like, how do you shape that conversation?

Tim: Yeah. And there's way more nuance than that, for sure. Um- Absolutely ... oftentimes, if you're building infrastructure software, let's say you're actually trying to build a database, for example, there's not enough proof points to work on it like a month or two just to know your database is not gonna work or not.

So a lot of people often will be doing R&D for six months or nine months, and learn at the end of nine months or 12 months that they probably should have pivoted or even way later than that, right? so it, it's hard because every company is generally different, because of the markets, because of the demands, because of the what's happening.

you know, 'cause we're not just worried about, you know, the, the markets per se, of customers per se. We're also looking at the affected players. What is Anthropic API, OpenAI is doing? What is Google doing? Used to be like why Amazon will kill you. Now it's like an OpenAI, Anthropic, Microsoft, Google might kill you, you know, or whatever, right?

The AI space is really fascinating that it's one of those markets I don't think anybody has any ability to predict the future, right? And cannot even predict a near future, which is the hard part of it. You're constantly being blown away by some new things. and so the only sort of like- Very fundamental parts of what we look at is the people.

So when it comes to pivots, I think it just comes down to, like, what is the assumptions? What is the mental thinking process that the team is going through? And the why are you pivoting? And that's probably where the h- the most interesting part. There's all kinds of pivots, you know. Some are more major pivots, some are smaller pivots.

Maybe I always thought I wanted to build this big top-down sales, big enterprise platform, but I might end up just doing a smaller free to, free-to-use product instead, right? I might be going after a horizontal play, but, like, let's narrow down to one vertical instead, right? So there's different... You can maybe not call it big pivots, but definitely, like, change the direction of strategy and the product that goes with it, you know?

And there's also big pivots, like I said, security and now you're doing local LMS. That's nothing to do with each other whatsoever. So smaller pivots of direction changes, I think every single one of my companies has something like that, pretty much. And we always end at the base mode with that. And that probably is what I always encourage folks to really explore.

Like, don't be too religious about the approach you take because you most likely are wrong. I was wrong as a founder lots, you know, and had to, like, the only thing that works is, like, the third try. And so many of our companies are, are similar. Yeah, so, uh, very few are very lucky, you know, uh, that you know exactly how it's gonna go and it really just works as is, uh, in different, you know, stages of life.

When it comes to major pivots, um, like you're really just like, "Uh, you know what? I'm, I'm not doing this anymore. Let me go do energy drinks instead," or something crazy like that. That literally, we have one company that actually wanted to become an energy drink company, so I'm not pulling up a random example here.

and, and then just, just, just like, okay, have you give up too quick, right? Uh, uh, and for what reasons? Why you think this is no longer a, a market and, and this and that. And that's also the, I guess the Part of the reason I think a lot of my founder friends and a lot of founders don't wanna be VCs is you really cannot make decisions for them, you know?

Yeah. They will-- Founders, they-- I, I, I don't take board seats too, and so we'll, we'll let them do whatever decisions. We're only there to have a voice that hopefully is a very helpful voice to them, which is not telling exactly what to do. Nobody needs that, right? but enough of a much informed voice, you know, that it comes with, like, a lot of value, hopefully.

But we can't change the decisions. So I don't think I have any way to dictate anyone's directions. I'm just here to provide as much as possible. The reason why I'm saying this to you and all the learned experiences and lessons and things I've seen that guides towards, I need to explain my reasoning.

Almost like LLM's like, "Why did you put this?" I had to spew all my reasoning traces. But, fundamentally is the founders taking all this data and all their pre-consumptions and all the system they probably already have in their heads, they're making their own decisions, and they're making the choices.

So I, I think investors, we, we, we have limited ways to really impact folks. but because we're the earliest stage and tend to be the closest with founders, we probably have more relative, like, influence than others. So I, I guess to answer your question, it really depends, you know? Some are more experience-based, some are more frustration-based, some of them are like, "Oh, somebody raised another two hundred million that we're gunning for them too closely to the sun," or, "Anthropic might kill us because they just announced something."

Every- everyone's different. Like, some are more... Some are-- Some get e-energized when I say Anthropic is killing them. Like, "Oh, no, no, I'm gonna go." "I'm, I'm heading towards them," right? A lot of people are like, "Eh, okay, no, we're not." Like, your full personality is on display, too, on-- when it faces challenges in your life, right?

and so I don't know. It's, it's a fun, it's a fun job because you observe many, many people on their full colors, 'cause there's so much online, their life work, all their energy is in it. So you're the-- You really see their full nature in display quite often.

Amir: Interesting.

Where do you like to end up? Like, are you hoping to just... I mean, you got, you know, the fourth fund, you know, just keep going. That's one option. Do you...

Yeah. Would you like to be acquired one day? I mean, well, I... And obviously, no one wants the secret sauce, but I'm just kinda curious when you're in it, 'cause you're, you're a founder, you're a builder, do you think that far ahead, or do you have some of those goals? And if you don't wanna share them, it's okay.

I don't wanna put you on the spot. No. But just kinda curious what, what, what your future kinda looks like for yourself.

Tim: When I raised my first fund, I was just trying to- Do this job, right? I have no other option.

Amir: Mm-hmm.

Tim: And frankly, my LPs, which are the people that backed my fund, are mostly individuals and maybe a couple VC funds.

They do not care how long-term you do this. They're just supporting you because they like you, and just think you have good taste. Or, "Oh, I've been a founder. I, I, I think I definitely see the ne-" Like, more... Something like that. But as soon as my, my LP base transition into institutions, which, are more serious backers, you know, they are your foundation endowments, your, fund of funds, you know, non-profits.

And, I wonder off- quite often their very first question or one of the first questions they ask is, "Tell me what your long-term goal is." You know? "Tell me what your fourth fund, your sixth fund..." When I'm doing fund two, they're asking what a fifth fund looks like, you know. I'm raising fourth fund, what does fund six might look like?

You know, they're all more long-term because they usually look at your fund in a more longer basis. So I, and I told f- I've been, I'm very honest with even th- those LPs that I truly don't know. because there's different type of things that could happen. Mm-hmm. But I told them the why I'm doing this, right?

The why I'm doing this, this fund is fundamentally is the belief that we make a difference, right? Because we're one of the only funds that embodies this, this value and this way of engagement and, the way of we working with folks. There's really not many funds like us. very few. and I think that re- represents a very exciting type of work.

I really enjoy working with founders really early. So if you asked me, like, I just wanna do this on a more ongoing basis because I think, it's rare to find a job where you can actually do what you like. There's some financial outcomes that, that's with it. I'm not gonna be as rich as a founder, but you know, I'm not a W2 employee only, right?

There's a certain like, you know, threshold of differences that we can make if we find good, make... As a VC, VC fund, we're supposed to make money, so you know, if we do our jobs right, you know, we're supposed to make somebody rich, right? Including ourselves somewhat. and so I think, you know, being able to have the autonomacy of making decisions, let's say we wanna back a team, and have the ability to keep working with founders like this nature.

Yeah, that's all I'm looking for, you know. Does it means like my own fund or joining some other funds? We'll see. But it's very... Like, when I look around, see lots and lots of our friends or people at work we work with a lot, co-invest a lot As soon as you add one more person, it's actually a very different fund, you know?

it's just the decision-making, the type of things you wanna do, how quick and y- you know, simple it is to collaborate. What's the brand? Is it really that pure anymore? Is it, like, gonna be, like, a different... Right? You add a couple different things, flavors, now it become, like, a generalist fund, which, like, goes back to the question, like, okay, now it become much more, you know, spread it, right?

and I don't wanna be a specialist and a generalist fund that is... 'Cause, you know, then there's many of them, you know, frankly. Like, now we're just one of them. We're o- one of 20 or 30 or 10, whatever, right? Where like, oh, hey, I actually think there's very little funds like us. I, I truly believe probably the only one that operate this way, have this kind of nature of profile.

And to me that, that is very gratifying, you know? Let me create something out of nothing and have a unique position in this market. And if we can do well, then it's a non-scalable model, but it also has a very unique taste that no one else can replace us, you know? At least easily. Yeah.

Amir: I love it. Tim, fantastic stuff.

I appreciate you coming on and sharing with us. if somebody does wanna connect, if they have a follow-up question, what, what's a good way to get in touch with you?

Tim: Yeah. So I'm on... I'm a VC now, so I, I need to be open to all, all messages. So you can find me on X, T-N-A-C-H-E-N, on LinkedIn. fema- feel free to email me at tim@essence.vc.

yeah. That's, that's all the channels. I'm, I'm wide open.

Amir: All right. Awesome, Tim. Thanks for, thanks for coming on board. Thanks for sharing.

Tim: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Amir: Absolutely. Been a pleasure. All right. That's it for this episode. I'll be back again, different guest, different topic. Until then, two things.

One, obviously Tim talked to us a lot about being a specialist, obviously, uh, being mainly solo with some help, talked to us about being niche and the powers and the opportunities behind that, so fantastic, uh, episode.

Hopefully you'll share this with somebody else in your world that could also benefit from it. I'd really appreciate that. Also, like, subscribe, comment, let me know how the show's going for you. Until next time, thank you and goodbye.